The OKR Podcast
The OKR Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Leadership & OKRs Fuel Growth

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Cravens, former CIO of Zynga and Uber as well as former VP, Software Engineering for Splunk shares what he learned about OKRs from Zynga, his passion for clarity, and how servant leadership leads to better business outcomes. Chris is one of few people who has ridden three high growth rockets -- his lessons are worth learning, including how ruthless prioritization helps people thrive as fast growth companies scale.

Mm, You're listening to the okay. Our podcast. We talk about the power of lateral alignment, an outcome mindset and empowering teams to do their best work from anywhere way. Also, talk about operating as a digital company, which is crucial now here journeys, learnings and victories from our guest speakers and get expertise from our host to scale your leadership capacity and operate with high impact trust and efficiency. Here's your host Dadri Pack nod Today my guest is Chris Craven's Chris is a Tech exec who's built, scaled and transformed global teams for some of the fastest growing companies in Silicon Valley. He's on a much deserved sabbatical right now, focused on his family, his health and wellness. I'm incredibly jealous. But skipping that over the course of Chris's career, he's really built some of the most amazing and scaled teams in super fast growth companies. He led multiple tech and ops teams at Uber as the company was doubling quarterly. He headed up I T at Zynga while they were doubling every six months, and the rise of gaming was growing insanely fast. And then he went on to Splunk and scaled with them from 800 million toe, over two billion in revenue, all of them epic journeys in industry creating companies. Chris is also practitioner of servant Leadership Has some very nice insights on what leading? Well, looks like. And he's got lots of experience in Okay, Rs. And all of that implies Inga was one of, of course, the earliest users of Okay, rs his coaching, his approach to mentoring will make our conversation terrific today. Chris, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. I'm so excited to talk today. Awesome. So you have super interesting career? Not not very many people get to go on three different rocket rides. Yeah, for better or for worse, right. Be careful what you wish for, right? Yeah. So I am very fortunate in my career and that I have been able to put myself in the right place at the right time a couple of a couple of times, and it's been personally and professionally transformative. So as you alluded to kind of the first really big rocket ride, was it Zynga? I was brought in there to start the I T organization, as we were what? 150 people This was before farm Bill. This was early days, Really Online gaming at all. Right? In the early days of Facebook, very quickly we took off. We launched Farmville. We learned all about Ec2 in scaling in Amazon, we wrote a bunch of stuff we like. I think I was on 20 plus emanates. We did like well over 30 just massive scaling and figuring out, like, how doe I set up this machine to constantly grow right. And what does it look like to build this thing? I had never done anything like that before. I mean, I had been operational in I t and I had run projects and done some transformation work, but never anything. Where kind of your baseline day to day is okay, you know, think of how your business grows. Now imagine you're going to double every six months, right? So your your baseline is on this massive tilt, and everything just has to go accordingly. Right? So you have to figure out how doe I scale ahead of that and anticipate what's next. And it is a difficult experience and not something to be undertaken lightly. E In those days, almost no one had grown that fast before. I mean, it was maybe Google, maybe Facebook. But there were not hundreds of companies that were super high growth in the early days of Zynga that was inventing what super...

...scaling looks like. Yes, Absolutely. And I mean, so I remember. Actually, I don't remember the date, but I remember the day that news started to scatter through headquarters, that we had actually officially outpaced Google as the fastest growing startup. And there was there was some. There was a metric there. And I wish I had this like, more effectively committed to memory, right? But it was it was a different register for me. It was it was more of an emotional thing of like, you know, that was really exciting to me because, you know, that that felt like impact to me on then. Famously, Zynga used okay, ours as a mechanism for driving clarity for accelerating, for actually helping people adjust to what it means to grow that fast. Absolutely. Okay. Ours were absolutely essential tool for us, Zynga, and something that, you know, it was a challenge at first to figure out how to shift your mindset, especially if somebody who's you know, comes from an operational background or comes from, like that really execution mindset to pivot, to think in outcomes and thinking in measures and think down range, especially when you're so used. Teoh. You know the way that organization so frequently plan their activities this quarter I'm going to do this thing and then this quarter I'm going to do that thing right? But you can't necessarily depend on that when you need to grow like that because you don't have the luxury of being able to wait to see how those outcomes really come out and how things shake out. You have to move faster, right? Which also means then and the other piece of this at Zynga specifically and one of the other great learnings there that was really freeing and something that I think more people need to dio and embrace is ruthless Prioritization and the combination of okay are like, well written. Okay, are that unequivocally clarify and create that that kind of harmonic resonance for everybody on the team where you understand what that is? You can tie it out and you understand your piece of it. That, coupled with the clarity of ruthless prioritization is exceptionally freeing. And you could go so fast and accomplished a time. And so, for for context, right? So I know you know, folks out there may not understand what ruthless prioritization is, right? So the simple thing of it is this. You always have a whack ton of stuff that needs to get done in a given week. There's way more than you can possibly get done at a level of quality that's going to be acceptable to you or the receiving party, right? So just admit that it's not about you. It's not a judgment. It's not a problem. It's just a thing, right? This is where we all live in a hyper scale. That is a thing. We all are. There. Go ahead. Okay, full stop. Admit I got more stuff than I need. What do I need to focus on? I can't spend all my time thinking about how I got more stuff. I can't spend all my time organizing it. I can't spend all my time making promises. I can't back up. I need to very quickly decide one of the three things I could dio and then go to him. you know, when you're building a product right and the people that depend on those other seven things when they're outside your walls, they don't know they come in. It's cool. If you are working in a broader team and there are people that have dependencies on you, you know it requires another level of communication and trust, right, And that's where the the interaction, I think between ruthless prioritization of cars really gets good at that cross functional management level. When, when, when you can get really crisp about what matters and what you can truly do to drive that...

...outcome in this period, right and how you're going to measure the efficacy of that great things happen. E. Equate the dynamic you talked about in really the gap between our ambition and our current capacity. Lots of times, right. If you have a lot of ambition, there is inevitably a gap between what you aspire to, but you imagine, are the possibilities and what your current capacity is. And instead of getting tripped up in that gap, right, just like fantastic, that's the best news there is, Yeah, no, your teacher know about yourself and understand also like Okay, there is a You know, if you imagine the Venn diagram, I would guess there is a high level of overlap between the people who are gonna have a propensity to overreach because they're super ambitious. And the people who show up in companies that grow really fast. Yep, absolutely. Yep. And the device right that helps them bridge that gap and to actually move closer to their ambition is, as you point out, right, it's ruthless prioritization. Okay, Can't do everything. So let me be unbelievably shrewd about the truth I make with my time. Because my capacity is simply time, right. However it takes, it takes an evolved person. And it takes an evolved management team to understand this, right? Because as long as we focus on activities and this kind of tactical task list kind of approach right, it doesn't work. This is why those people do so well in Okura based environments. Right? It becomes this very freeing thing of Okay, here's the outcome that you need to drop five. I am not going to tell you how you get there, right. We need thio. Figure out like there's always this negotiation of how much work is there and all this thing right? But the spirit of it is you own the how here's here's the why and how much and how many right now Go get it. I am. You have the tools to constrain your world, such that you can focus. Right? But we all have to be prepared for that conversation. Yeah, and that doesn't happen without leadership itself being prepared for that conversation, right? And, yeah, that's a sign of good, mature governance. Right? Is an understanding. And look, Pincus was the one who was shouting ruthless prioritization from the rooftop. So absolutely huge credit to him. And I still think that is, like, the most valuable thing I ever learned from the man. It changed my professional life. Yeah, I had the actually my last real trip in 2020 before. There. What? There was no travel. He and I are Mark Pincus and I were guest speakers at a multi day Harvard Business School symposium on Okay, ours and using new ways of teaming in new ways of managing and leading the way forward. And he talked a lot about the early days and and just why it was so important to him. And it was awesome to hear his stories, obviously. But, man, he was clear on why being explicit about the outcomes and measuring was so important. Thio taking the hill right and growing at the rate that the company was growing It's quite good. Was also very open about the wrong turns taken and have been done differently. The candor was just seemed just as important as the rest, actually. Oh, absolutely. Well, if you think about it, like through your process, right, you need to have that ability to candidly and with great self awareness, retrospect and understand. Truly. Where am I In the same same spirit. I know I've got more stuff on my plate than I can possibly...

...execute with quality. So therefore I will prioritize. Right? Okay. I know that I don't execute everything perfectly. Yep. Yep. There we Oh, there we go. Let's set up a feedback loop, you know? And you know, I remember a lot of the chaos around, okay? Ours early on and it was it was hard like it was really, really hard. And when that cross team coordination wasn't there, and this is why I say that that's where the magic is, because I remember the quarters where that didn't work, right? And invariably what would happen is when that friction was there and when the alignment wasn't really there. Right? Somebody runs in two weeks before the end of the quarter and says You have to do fill in the blank because it is fill in the blank executives, okay, are right. And then you're right back to managing by personality by fear, by task, you know, And to Zynga's credit, they kept fighting through that right? And that's that's important, right? That in this kind of thing, that is your trough of disillusionment moment. That's what were you as the leader need thio like go ahead and whatever it is, whatever your metaphor is, pull up your Wellies, have your Wheaties. You know, whatever it issue is, the leader now need to own us and make it better. Yeah, nobody else owns it for you. Takes a ton of guts to really, really aligned laterally. Yeah, way people think. And you can never wait. Like if you're sitting there. If you're sitting there in that exact staff meeting or in that cross functional planning meeting and you have even an inkling of a thought off. You know, this is unfair or that person isn't reaching out to me, that is your signal that you are not reaching out enough, right? That's it. 100%. Yeah. You know, I know I felt that and that was just fear that was that kind of Jeez, I don't know if I'm doing this right, you know, And it's ultimately like those kind of interactions. They need to be built on a better level of trust for that cross functional leadership team to gel and really execute. Well, if you if you don't have that trust cross functionally same way if you don't have the trust within your own organization. Yeah, things were not going to flow correctly, right? The information won't flow. The conversation flow. Correct, right? People will hold back information. They'll overstate the positive, understate the negative ways called multilevel management turd polishing. You know that you start with something at the like the individual contributor level, where it's like something here is really, really bad. And, you know, maybe there's a clear called action, and maybe there's not. But it's bad on by the time it makes it Thio the line manager to the senior manager, to the director, to the senior director to the VP to the CEO when it gets on my status report. Is the CEO like this is all fantastic? Yeah, right. And it's just that is a sign of a problem in the organization around trust, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Go right, right. So let's let's transition to some of the experiences you had at at Splunk in particular. I know you did some really transformative things there and in particular, maybe some of your servant leadership and teeming superpowers came from your experience, it at Splunk. So thank you. Yeah, So teeming is a huge thing right now. I'm a fan of teaming in a slightly different way, right? And the same way I really like to think about how we...

...measure the organization by business outcome. I like to think about organizing also by business outcome and building execution teams around business outcome. And, you know, this is not anything new, right? This is kind of digital 101 And this is the way that web products are built, right? So in in the areas where this can work technically right, and there are heavy caveats around this. This doesn't work for every piece of an internal technology organization from the actual like tech piece of it. But from the organizational mindset, I think it's rock solid. You organize yourself mawr around business topic areas, and you govern your investments around these topic areas, and it takes work to be able to define them, and you need to be able to redefine them on an ongoing basis. The organizational structure really become somewhat fluid at that team level, but by and large, so I would look at, you know, within that organization I was primarily aligned to Sales is my primary customer because my job was to go and transform our top line. And think about how do we effectively prosecute digital transformation, widen the final policy sides, get deals through faster right and then greater stock price. So we have to be able to focus within that. But it's not just enough to stack up a whole bunch of projects and think that you're going to get an outcome right that doesn't work. It's much more about what commitment do we want to make to clear previous debt and having a conscious understanding of how much we want to be drawn to the past versus where we're gonna just burn the boats and move on. How much of a conscious investment are we gonna make into repairing something versus building something new? What are our conscious investments? And that's in particular topic areas. So for ours, we did big transformation. First on the lead to opportunity flow within Salesforce, we partner really closely with the business. We defined the objectives. We set a team around it. We swarmed on it and executed very much in a scrum mentality. We proved that and then started to replicate it out kind of topic by topic again, starting with go to market first and then continuing to build out, but organizing in that way it gave us a completely different way to have the conversation. Also, it changed the governance model. It changed the way that we frame the conversation with exact staff. It changed the way that I reported on my spend. You know, I didn't report on this kind of project level spend anymore. The detail was all there, but I really wanted to be able Thio and we were actually pursuing for zones with Jeff More at the time. Eso I was able to mold that a little bit into our vernacular, and what we ended up doing was we worked through that at one point. But then we adapted it to How do we define our investments as things that either run the business, grow the business or transform the business right? And then how do I How do I govern my investments and govern my objectives? And at a at a very quick glance, I can tell how well or how poorly I am aligned to the strategy of the company and what's necessary. I think that one of the things we're seeing ah lot of is this just re imagining what team and organizing models are. So this there's the legacy. The organization legacy of particularly large enterprise, not cult like relatively slow moving enterprise, is We have vertical alignment and we goal...

...individuals which are fundamentally a set of private conversations between two people and vertically aligned, where the growth you've experienced and the growth I've experienced and what I'm seeing in company you're trying to move faster is Actually, it's not vertically aligned private individual conversations. It's how we team like teams are the engine of value creation, and the lateral alignment is how we growth. Absolutely. It's that lateral alignment. And then it is the further component ization of the work and definition of ownership, accountability and outcome in those teams. Right, And you're right. It is having that cross functional view within the team. You know, if you look at a scrum team in a great technology company, there is somebody thinking about the user experience. There is somebody thinking about the the aesthetics. There is somebody thinking about functionality. There's something thinking about data. There's something thinking about security, usual rolls, right, and it's going to be split up differently amongst different people. But these are the kind of roles that need to happen. There is no reason when we go to apply a new teaming model to some other context that we can't think about it the same way. If you are, let's say, let's say you're in a C R O stack and you're trying to think about how Doe I want to build a team to accomplish an objective. You still have the same models. You may not hire a product manager, but you still need to think about what is my process and how do I automated? You may not hire a designer, but you still need to think about how doe I craft my message and make my decks look good. You may not have like a pmm person, but you're gonna need to write copy, right? Those roles are all there. It all works E. But the the the real benefit is focus and ownership at that level. Yeah, right. And then these autonomous teams move fast on when we have teams and we think of them as dynamic teams, right? So teams where they're not formed because there's authority and hierarchy. But teams that air formed because that's the right set of talented people and skills. We need to drive a particular mission, if you will, and so we don't have authority to get the team to do the right thing in the right order, right? There's a vacuum. What I love about team level. Okay, ours is they become away for a self forming teams to self articulate what their intention is, whether it is they're trying to achieve and get to a shared understanding, co authored understanding of what are the outcomes were collectively going to drive, and then we all care about them. We're accountable to each other. We have a different relationship to what it is we're going to dio than the classic model of like the specialized teams. Here's your activity list where you on the activity? Right? Which sounds like a death march activity lists or an absolute death march. And that's unfortunately kind of how people are really marshaling right now on this. This new distributed work model is well, but you're right. It's this kind of tactical thing of what have you done for me today? As opposed Thio? Tell me about the piece of the business that you own and contribute Thio. And how's it going? Yeah, and what's your ambition? Right? Which one would Yeah, Which one would you rather here, Right? Like this is the piece of the business that you have accountability for. We have the maturity to have the process and the systems in place so that we understand, like here's the goal serves the objectives. Here's what Here's what we measure the outcome of that that means to all be part of the process so that you can elevate that conversation to that. That level of this is the human being providing this capability. You know, whether it's leading the team or they're contributing to the team.

You know, there, somebody in your organization contributing to an outcome right and your responsibility is the leader is to ensure that they understand how they're connected, that they are aligned. They are invested right. They're contributing, right. Your role as a leader is not to badger them with a task list. E think, if you think about like the potential for okay, ours and in particular in dynamic teams that cross functional teams. It's this potential for every single team toe actually have ambition and be unbelievably clear about how they're going to use their finite capacity to realize their ambition. And it's really hard to get ambitious about a long list. It's ways easier to get ambitious about shared intentions that make a measurable impact on the company. You work for the customers you serve. Yeah, and guess what? It may still be 80% of that stuff that's on that long list that absolutely has to get done. You're still gonna do work? Is not that you don't You know why I write the why, right? That if you can tie it back, Thio like, why are you doing this? Not, you know, So it gets done. I want to implement S e. I got to set up the firewall If I don't turn on the fire while we get breached. You know, that's not why you're doing You're doing it so that we have a great experience for our end users. You're doing it so that we grow top line 400% this year. You're doing it so that we you know, there's some outcome that's there. And if we can effectively as leaders and this is really what we need to be able to do, right? It's first defining this outcome. And, you know, it's creating the fiction of this new world where this outcome has happened and making it really for people, right? If you gotta make it really in the team's mind to make it resonate, right, and that's ultimately your first role as a leader, right is to start that conversation and and get that to be something that is now going to see it and continue to grow right. And they'll continue to make that vision better, right? So you get in there and get the division, you get him aligned and you get a moving, you know, and get and get clear understanding of who is going to own one. How do we interact? What are our contracts with one another? It doesn't have to be this big, arduous thing. But kind of How do we hand off from one group to another? And how do we make sure that nobody is running in at the last minute saying something isn't done? Yeah, right, Right. So you also have to think that about, like, how do you set up your leading and lagging kind of indicators? And they're Israel Work to do with this is well right. This is not all. Just like woo kind of. We're gonna burn incense and talk about our feelings. Now, this is more discipline and more fortitude for leaders, not less. Absolutely. It is a look. This is a lifestyle. That's the thing. This is not something that you undertake lightly. If you really wanna do this like to me okay, Are is a lifestyle and it's a it's a choice that you make. I actually had this s so I had this discussion with my daughter. It sounds really horrible when I started like that, but she asked me, we were having We're all doing the like school from home and work from home and home from home and all the things right. So it just so happened I before we got together here I was talking to my daughter and what's on your what's on your agenda. And I was telling her like a recording a podcast. And she's actually what are you talking about? And I gave her kind of, ah, high level right. And I gave her my kind of view on objective based management, right? And she kind of gave me that look is, you know, an inquisitive seven year or seventh grader does, and I explained that you were like, Look, it's the difference between me. Like if you think about the way that I ask you...

...about your homework, I don't hound you about. Is this homework done? Is that homework done? I know that I could log into the classroom system with school and see what's done. What is it? Instead, my conversation that I wanna have with you is what did you observe? Three doing your homework. What did you learn? What was hard, What was really easy. You know, what was the thing that happened that you didn't expect? Like, I wanna I wanna be able to engage and have that deeper conversation with her, and she got it intuitive. That's way better. E don't want you to just ask me what I'm doing. Yeah, or nag me doing it right, which is somehow an interpretation of what team level management looks like, right? If we set up, if we set up our project management systems as glorified nag where that's what we're gonna get, you have to be able to look. You have to be able to manage the task level. You have to be able to do it. And you you have to be able to allow people to look, they're going to do jury task. They're gonna do a song or whatever. Whatever the platform is, it has to happen. But that's not the point. That's not where leadership happens. That's where the technical execution happens. Use a leader need to set your folks up in such a way that they have faith and that is their world, right? They have faith that you are in your world there in their world, they get toe own how they do the execution. Now, obviously, look, if there's quality issues, you've got to dive in. You gotta fix them all those kind of things, right? So I am speaking in this in terms of like, assuming that things were going well, you still have to be able to dive in where necessary. But you have to give those teams the ability to own really own their outcomes. If you want them, thio, grow and learn. Yeah, and I think growth and learning are where riel sustained innovation actually come from. And that's the only way that you you grow the next level of leaders, right? Otherwise, you grow another level of taskmasters, right? You don't grow independent, critical thought by continuing to run down task lists. Too easy. You need to throw people in those difficult, sticky, messy gray situations where they have toa exercise critical thought where the answer is not easy. Yeah, critical thought ambition in the face of uncertainty and scarcity. That's where original great products always come from. Absolutely. And then we go girl companies and we like squash out the conditions that created the magic in the first place. Kind of ironic. Yeah, that's a great observation. You're right. But that you know, all of that uncertainty and all of that kind of vagary. That's an opportunity to really step up and define something you could definitely take that from. A more backseat position of Jesus is so vague. It's hard to operate in this. No, no, no. But look, my take is this. And I heard this phrase once, and I absolutely love it. In the absence of other leadership, step in and do the right thing. Like, just just go do it. Go bring a little order out of that chaos and make it better. You know, if no one else like there's nobody else here doing it, I'm gonna go do it. Yeah, leap into the vaccine. Yeah, until somebody tells me that I'm offending them greatly by doing it, you know? Good chance they won't. So let's turn the leadership because this is one of the weirdest years ever. And as we talked about earlier. Right? There's a A psychic taxes on 2020 for all of us, really. But big deal is what it means to lead right now. Looks really different than what it meant before and sort of a several shifts there. But you talked about trust a bit earlier. You talked about how important that was. A lot harder to build and a lot harder to...

...preserve an amplify when we never see each other when we have no small interaction, exactly right, that's exactly right. Because, look, so adjacency is a real thing, right? And I think, look, it za fantastic thing that those of us to have the opportunity from to work from home are able to work from home and that at least some part of the economy can keep going. But the benefits that we had from being in an office are not necessarily all direct benefits to execution. There are a lot of indirect benefits execution, you know, if you think about it, I did mention trust Roy, and trust is a huge thing for me, right? And I think trust is knowing enough about that person that you know how they're going to react right, similar to like my view on culture. I mean culture is the way that people are going to act when, like that person who's in charge of the culture is not in the room, right the way that people actually nobody's looking right. That's your riel culture. But that trust is so incredibly important when you need to be able to move fast, right? It's not just, you know, it's each of these things kind of building one another, right? If you have that crisp understanding and then emotional resonance with what the outcome looks like, right, that person now knows what they need to dio. You also need to develop the trust so that they can now go do it and you can stop asking about it until it's appropriate to ask about it, right. And they need the trust on their side also so that they know when you handed to them. You're actually handing it to them and you're not going to come back five minutes later and try to micromanage that you're not going to go hand it to someone else right that you are. You are the person who does what they say, right? And this is this is something I could depend on. We used to get that signal from all sorts of other areas and especially when you think about this not necessarily with the people that you directly interact with, but for senior leaders. This is something to think about for your skip level, folks. But now you don't see them in a monthly all hands. You don't see them in a large format meeting where one of you is talking and one of you is not. But there's that adjacency inability to kind of tangentially interact, right? So these things kind of implicit opportunities to solidify community and trust have really gone away. And we have replaced all of this with implicit conversations within our immediate execution teams. Right? And those kind of additional opportunities were fading, which I think that really changes the dynamic and the feedback I hear from people. And I don't know about you. What I hear is commute time is taken up with zoom meetings. Lunch time is taken up with zoom meetings. Gym time is taken up with zoom meetings, and every one of those meetings is a status check run down. I won't go to a status check meeting e just I'm not a believer and in part because I don't need to go to a meeting for that Riggs in the whole platform, like, does that job for me. But I love it was tooling that people should be jealous of e a. I mean and that's actually why it's why I started work, right? That right. I was spending half of my time at IBM literally in readout meetings or preparing for readout meeting that this is watching colossal waste of my potential as a human being. E can't do it anymore. There's got to be a better way, right? But I the to your point about this small, your own team. And I think our what we observe, even without the status meetings right is is that...

...our world shrinks to our nuclear team, right? There are not the adjacent seas or the ambient engagement we have with other people in our physical space. Right? So it's from the zoom meeting with the same co workers all the time as opposed Thio. I'm in the kitchen with completely different people that I never see and talk to you, right? So my relationships, they're shrinking, contracting, and the sort of the other big miss we feel is micro victories. Right? And then when you walk right, something good happens. Thank with a customer, or you walk back in the office from something and and it was great. So you just in the moment you just share the goodness, right? Right? And that that kind of that. That feeling, you know, that feeling. Like you have a really good customer meeting and they walk out and you go back in for, like, the quick two minute high five, and everybody feels it right. Like your pass. Enjoy around. Yeah. Call a meeting to say, Hey, I got I got to tell you guys, this was so great, you will walk up to somebody and say, Oh, my God, that was like one of the best meetings ever, right? Like you will exchange that in person. And you won't in this sort of zoom world because it zoom in structured interactions with each other, Not the free flow of literally free flow of joy and micro victories. I miss that the most, actually. Well, again, it's It's like did you do your homework? Or can we talk about what you learn from your homework? Right? And this is just This is the same thing that we all, as leaders need to be really conscious about, you know, back Thio just to pull it back. The other. I think this stuff is really simple. It's hard to do, but it's simple to define a framework. It's hard to stay within your framework, right. But there have to be some things to really, really anchor on. And I think that one gets back to ruthless prioritization, right? And what do I as a leader, want to prioritize? I am not willing to shortcut the level of empathy trust, you know, I do not want to shortcut the relationships that I built with my team. I don't want to under invest in their development and their growth, right? So I am not willing to sacrifice that time and trade that for a status meeting or, for that matter, to prep aboard Doc or an exact staff deck or whatever, like there is nothing more important to me than building that relationship with that person. And this is my council to my manager is a swell is this is your job, right? Your job and part of being a manager is you are here to ensure the success of your organizations. That means you are here to ensure the success of the whole human beings in your organization, right? It's not just their execution. It's their whole Selves. Need to be represented in the work, you know, and you need to give them that space. Yeah, that's that's actually a perfect note to wrap on and L se Teoh really two leaders everywhere. What the The giant positive aspect of the last six months or so that we've been zooming and working from home is we've had the opportunity to see whole human beings see them in their homes, meet their 12 year olds, meet their partners, understand more about what their home life looks like. And if we were curious and we were paying attention, we got to see a more integrated human being, right. We got to see the entire person and get to know them better. And maybe we got Thio...

...that benefit with fewer people than we might have. But we did have, and we still have that opportunity the rest of this year. So while we're still working from home, think whole human beings and then carry it into 21. Absolutely. How do we How do we adapt from this and define a new level of depth in those interpersonal relationships and also in those inner team relationships and how we work together right through this by and you're right. How do we carry these good behaviors forward? Because there is nothing wrong with continuing to elevate our level of sophistication in this. When we go back into the office, wouldn't it be an amazing world, like if you can, Actually, on the objective I always set for my folks was I want status to be the off gassing of doing the work right. It needs to be the byproduct in the digital waste of doing the work right. If we can move into this world where we understand our objectives and outcomes explicitly, like that deep, fibrous resident level right where we can manage our interactions around the status of the work in a similarly deep way, that is tied to how we execute and we actually focus the conversations around. What are we learning from doing the work. How are we responding? Better to our customers. How are we anticipating what is next in the market, Right. And how are we ultimately continuing to create those growth and development opportunities for our people so that they can continue to drive greater and greater results and greater ownership? Right. We can absolutely do all of that. Like, let's not waste a good crisis. There you go. You called it perfect. Perfect conclusion for our conversation. Chris, that was so fun. Thank you for sharing your experiences, your journeys, that all of the I mean, you can just see it sort of baked into the fabric the way you think about teaming and outcomes and and the way you think about people. It was such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Danger. I really enjoyed it. This is an absolute blast. You've been listening to the okay. Our podcast subscribe in your favorite player. So you never miss a moment. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Uh huh.

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