The OKR Podcast
The OKR Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

Iterable Captures the Energy of Alignment to Fuel its Exponential Growth

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Iterable's Chief Operating Officer, Jeff Samuels, and Chief of Staff, Nicole Watkins, join Deidre Paknad in this week's OKR Podcast to share how they are maximizing inflection points at their rapidly scaling company by accelerating lateral and vertical alignment and learning with OKRs and WorkBoard. For Iterable, using the OKR framework has had a significant impact on their ability to operationalize their strategy by providing each team with transparency, a real purpose, and meaning in their everyday work.

...you're listening to the Okay our podcast, we talk about the power of lateral alignment and outcome mindset and empowering teams to do their best work from anywhere. We also talk about operating as a digital company which is crucial. Now here journeys learnings and victories from our guest speakers and get expertise from our host to scale your leadership capacity and operate with high impact trust and efficiency. Here's your host Dadri pack nod. Yeah. Today my guests are Jeff. Samuels and Nicole Watkins from Iterable. Jeff is chief operating officer and Nicole is his chief of staff Among their many day jobs together. They drive results alignment and management with Okay ours and work board for iterable. Now when we first began working together in january 2020 honourable had just closed a $60 million Series C or series de funding and had about 250 employees. Last quarter, you announced a $200 million series E funding that valued the company at $2 billion and now you're almost 500 people strong. So congratulations on the fast growth and the value you're creating Jeff. Tell us a little bit about honorables mission and the growth care that you're on. First of all, thank you so much for having us. I'm so glad to be here. And I know Nicole is as well. We just love our partnership and the mission of what you all are doing here and trying to get the world to understand. There's a more organized, better way to operate and work. So really excited to be here. And I'm really excited to hear with Nicole Nicole, maybe if you want to say a few words at the top because you worked so closely with workforce as well. Really excited to be here as well. Thank you for having us. I'm really excited about this discussion right on. So you know, let me tell you a little bit about terrible. Yeah. And in fact we surpassed 500 employees. This, this world of later stage startups is just a very exciting one. But let me tell you a little bit about what we do, simply put iterable is the leading modern customer engagement platform. And let me just unpack that for a second were the system of record and engagement powering all engagement for our customers. And those customers are some of the biggest brands in the world like Zillow and door dash and fender and box and we do things like loyalty promotion, transactional and even product level activity for these brands with their end users. So we're everything for our customers as it relates to their end customers. And the market that we are disrupting is a $25 billion total market today spend today that's built on decades of legacy tech that most companies are having a really difficult time scaling operating and actually driving the growth they're looking for. So it's an exciting time at iterable. It's exciting for our customers. It's exciting for our employees and you know, we're really pleased to be where we are in the market and our mission is to connect, connect people with products that bring them joy and as we'll talk about, I'm sure because every time I talk with you, I talk about values, we scale by embracing our values. You guys are absolutely perfect spot right now, right? The last 18 months have literally transformed everybody into a digital native right? And along with that our expectations for the experience we get from the products we buy and the sources that we buy from our expectations for experience and how engaging that experiences are through the roof. Right? What a wonderful time for you to be helping companies that sell products do a better job at delivering an amazing experience. Perfect place at the perfect time. Yeah, totally. Like when, when you think about Covid has been this pandemic has...

...been so hard for so many people and so many of the people that we work with from a market perspective, it is compressed digitization materially like you can argue like a decade of digitization has been compressed into a pandemic. And so this also opens up opportunities for practitioners out there to think bigger and to think differently and technologies and platforms like interval that serve that purpose to enable those practitioners to do just amazing things with their amazing brands. So dial it back before there was a pandemic and when we would have done this in person back to January 2020 and why did you adopt? Okay, art, what, what were you trying to accomplish and then how they played into or have they played into the growth that you've seen over the last year and a half or so? Yeah, I mean the answer is it was a very iterative you no pun intended process, you know about how, how, how we've done that and let me go back a little bit like, you know, I've been a CMO, a general manager, go to market practitioner for a long time and you know, alignment and collaboration and helping our teams restore full potential has always been a priority. And in fact like, you know, even like, you know, even before you and I we started working the other work board we had started embracing okay ours because it is the language of alignment, it is the language of scale and it's the, it's the language that we want to propagate as a unified language and when I joined approximately 2.5 years ago, you know, we were about 200 employees and you know, and 200 we call them generators to like that's the employer are affectionate employee name and we only had a few 100 customers and like, you know, I think about startups and everyone gets, everyone feels like they're at this inflection point and actually I feel like one thing that separates start start ups and start ups can be very big companies too as well as we're finding out from other types of companies like there's always that feeling, you're an inflection point of growth, like it's not like wow I've I've I've hit X date, you know 4500 bucks but you're constantly at this inflection point and you know what what we realized that to accelerate growth, you know, we need and had to accelerate our learning and to accelerate and to celebrate, you know, accelerate alignment and you know, I I practice the framework of okay rs you know, with with you and work board at Cisco and before that, you know, different iterations of okay are type frameworks and realizing that it is I think one of the only answers to getting everyone on the same page towards outcomes that you want. It's just it is I think a real cleansing process but also a process of clarity of where we're going and so we started that process and you know, in terms of your answer of like how it's helped us. I mean looking back at the journey through the pandemic, you know, we've on boarded more than 300 employees, you know in covid, you know, we're pushing now nearly 1000 customers and we're so thankful for that. So it's so much has been around us maximizing these inflection points to get energy in the same direction and so you know, it's been it's been a really, really important part of what we've been doing your observation that for startups and growth companies start ups, scale ups, maybe that that the inflection points come really fast. It's I love that observation and as you were saying that I was thinking and maybe that's actually why some of us always choose startup, that you there those inflection points are a bit habit forming, right? Like there's a whole lot of endorphins that come from seeing the next reflection point, crossing it, right? And you really learn to just sort of dig that rhythm and the speed that goes along with it and there there. And I think this to actually accelerated a bit by the pandemic right there coming even faster then they...

...already did in a in a growth environment totally. And I think like the process, you know that we've been trying to optimize is the idea of being able to slow down right? Like and I think okay ours is an irony, Maybe it's irony, it allows us to slow down as well as speed up, you know, because the idea of the the the at the beginning of when you set your okay rs you are looking back, you are taking a moment to pause on the inflection point that's in front of you and you know, what do you want to do with this? How did you deal with the last inflection point and without that kind of cadence, it doesn't naturally happen like and it doesn't intuitively happen either. So like another thing that that another real benefit of this okay our process has been being able to pause to understand, you know, what time is it right now for Iterable and where do we want to go and have the empowerment to change direction which I think you know this idea of quarter power that we can talk about a little bit more has enabled us to do. That's awesome. The phrase used, it's a cleansing process, right to stop, take stock and given what's true now make a set of decisions and you end up spending, you sort of lose less time continuing to execute past the point that the assumptions are still true and past the point that those strategic priorities are indeed still strategic priorities, right? And you sort of were going along because we're going along as opposed to we're going along because this is really important place for us to go. It's cleansing is such a cool word for that. The pause and take stock over again. Let's talk a little bit about and I know this is important to both of you and and it shows up in so many ways, but one of them of course not the least is that honourable is named best place to work both in the berry in colorado year after year. Just difficult competition because there's a lot of great companies in those regions and I've through a couple of your off sites and obviously our conversations over the years, I've had the opportunity to see how hard the leadership and how intentional the leadership team is about values and culture. Maybe talk to us a little bit about what our troubles values and then how you see the intersection of okay ours and value and they work together. Do they are they at odds with each other? How do you see it? Yeah, it's a great question. Well, first of all the values and I said at the beginning are just so core to iterable as as an organism. And I sort of look at companies like that and every operator and our values. We have four values, trust, humility, balance and growth mindset and they're concise and they are connected and individually there's they're strong but together they're even a force multiplier and they've been extremely important to our journey of growth. And again we say it's every week at our town hall about scaling by while embracing our values. It's been an objective as part of our okay ours in a meaningful way and it's more than just, you know, something we say right and it's important to say it. But we've actually leaned into that as we've looked at the objectives and KRS that that align in this area and driving and Nicole, there's been there's been a bunch that we've we've leveraged when we think about when we think about, you know, some of the work we've done with our operators on the value side of it because again we've been very front and center about making sure that our moderator population is healthy and strong and growing and we've always made sure and this is also a big part of our cars that you can bring in, you know people strategy with your you know your growth strategy. Because is there any like that go is there any that you think we want to bring up here? Like in terms of the KR work that we did to make sure that...

...values were brought in. Yeah, I was thinking of the one that pertains to balance, you know some of our current people policies actually came out of our okay our performance review discussions for example during the initial stages of Covid we realized that there was a blurred delineation between office hour and then personal life and really I think the whole world was struggling with this similar challenge. And what we saw in the data was it was showing our employees were logging in earlier and then logging off later and so with most operators never experiencing work from home, there was this disillusionment that you had to be on at all times and to prove your productivity with your managers with your teammates, with your leaders. So you know, we had our flexible PTO policy but when Covid sent in it presented certainly unique challenges for our community of generators to practice the value of balance. And so as a leadership team, we knew that we had to prioritize our employees well being imbalanced. So we put it on the map of our strategic priorities within work board. And we basically set a KR. Where we stated that X percentage of employees take x amount of PTO within the quarter to care for their well being. And each week we looked at the trends in work board and we use that data basically to shape our next level of policy for employees, which was we then inaugurated a balanced day, the honourable balance day, which is a company wide holiday. So that was really exceptional. Well received by our employee population. So basically we have this intentional day to practice balance and it was an additional 12 vacation days in addition to our company holidays and PTO. And so that's where we see, you know us embodying our values but also putting okay Rs into the conversation with our values. That's awesome. I'm gonna borrow your KR on the measuring how many people take time because she had the same struggle. We gave people weeks off because I mean in part because you don't think you have anywhere to go, so you don't think about taking it off even if you don't have anywhere to go rest, right? But I I love the idea of using KR to actually measure whether people are taking time for themselves personally, right versus the we just shut the whole thing down the and the notion of balance itself I think is quite hard to find at the moment probably about to get a little bit harder as we head into winter. What also super interesting about what the way you used okay Rs there right? As you measured to learn what right not measured to like declare victory and not measured to like punish somebody or be punitive about it. But you measured to learn to get insight that would help then inform the next set of decisions you want to make as a leadership team. And I think that's a super evolved way to think about KRS and what do I want to learn how much I use the key result to prove or disprove? An assumption we have about something that is a leading indicator of future outcomes. Is it super savvy wait to to use the the data right? I would have one other thing like I think that that is the right observation. But it was also it's like not only used to test assumption but it was also and I feel passionately about this about okay ours. It's like what kind of conversation do you want to be having? Right? Like like there's no doubt we talk a lot about you know the anatomy of A. K. R. And have all sorts of very geeky conversations as it relates to these sort of things. But what by prioritizing this and regardless of whether we achieved it or not right and like it's sort of irrelevant because of the policy change, It showed the leaders around the table because this is an L1 care, but through work board everyone was able to see it and we encourage managers to make sure...

...they're having the conversation because a big part of again balance is ensuring that employees manager having the right kind of conversation as often as needed. And so this also helped catalyze that. I think that's another thing, it's sort of like when I think about the Krs that we're setting I'm saying and I'm asking is this what we want to be talking about and if it's not we shouldn't be measuring in this way. It can be just on some dashboard. Yeah, that's right, Nicole, let me come back to you and talk about something somewhat related to that which is momentum and you and I have talked about this before in in a couple other settings but how important it is to focus on not only what can be learned and what we can do better, but to focus on momentum and positive impact. The things that we want to amplify, not the things that we want to change and that is in my experience particularly for change agents and problem solvers they find what needs to change in which problems need to be solved and they don't do the same amount of work to find what was successfully changed and what could be celebrated but you do a lot to celebrate momentum and lead by a positive example and that's probably why the recognition for being a great place to work. But what are three or four of the tactics and practices that you've used that help identify build momentum on what is working. I think it's really important that any time you roll out a change in an organization, I think it's important to set the foundation and what happens at the outset can really determine your success. And we joked about this at the beginning that I subscribe to the belief that repetition is the mother of retention and so what we did was we iterated and we developed very creative ways to reinforce our okay our culture. So one of the things that we did was we implemented in our in our program whereby we sought to recognize and communicate and applaud key result winds and operators who embodied our values such as growth mindset and it could have been a key results that was trending in the red or needing more attention but we wanted to give and recognize and reward that type of keen focus on strategic priorities. Another thing that we did was we highlighted okay our stories in town hall, I would say that you know town hall, it's a favorite of many at our company is one of the main stage forms of communication at our company and so we wanted to use this platform to celebrate in a very loud and transparent way across the company. These amazing okay our stories and it gave KR owners an opportunity to highlight their priority work that aligned with intervals mission. Another thing that we did or another tactic that we employed was the creation of our quarterly Okay, our postcard video and this we embedded in our company biz review within work forward. And so basically what we did was each quarter, we featured a member of the leadership team who spotlighted at departments OK, our achievement and operators can see their own work or their own contribution coming to life through the lens of a member of the executive team. So we tried many creative ways to build momentum and I would say that, you know, all of these things may seem to be common sensed, but we knew that it was needed to be common practice to drive success and to drive the importance of the program. Yeah, well things are common sense. It doesn't mean that you mobilize on them right often. It means like you really common sense and I know that and still I'm not going to allocate any time or effort or creativity to executing them right? And they they make the celebration the bringing it forward and helping people be seen for the okay is that they're...

...aspiring to what they're learning from, that they're reaching for. I think doing that intentionally is one of the hallmarks of a very successful impactful Okay, our practice, right? And it's, I think of it as as returning the heart and energy that people put into setting good, okay ours in the first place, right? Like if they really get motivated and they really like their okay rs being seen for that with the same energy is a return on the heart they put into it and it's easy to kind of not do that step, but it's so much more potent and powerful. If you do return the heart that they invest, you'll get, you'll get a lot more heart in the next cycle of the next cycle. The next cycle? Yeah, those are certainly the dividends that you're a good point as you drive the next stage of growth a lot larger Orig actually not only a lot larger or more than half of those people are relatively new in tenure Cross 100 million in revenues. The leadership and operational challenges change. Right? And they're going to keep on changing to your point, Jeff on the inflection, please just keep coming. But Jeff as you are looking at the trajectory now, the size and scale of the company now, how are you adapting? Okay as to what's true for the company today versus a year and a half ago. And is the operating rhythm changing at this stage? Yeah. You know, I think it's one thing that I've learned through this, this okay, our journey is that you have to be extremely agile. You have to and like again challenge your assumptions. I love that paradigm and framework of what we need to do and we're doing that you know, I think like you know we look at our our values as our keel, you know if you're if you're a person of boats and okay rs are operating model, we don't quite have the metaphor there yet on what okay ours is part of the ship but but it's basically maybe your map if we're making this up as we go along, you know and what you're trying to do and where you're trying to sail to. Oh I like that actually you know that's that's right values kill okay our is our our map and again sometimes we don't know where we're going before we start plotting that out, you know? But yes as are okay our journey as our company maturity, okay our journey mature, mature as well. So a couple things that we're doing, number one is and again this is I think a pro tip that I've learned is like if you do not do integrated planning as a company wide thing, you should start right now like literally go start that right now and what I mean by integrated planning it's like it's not just budget planning is not just a DNA planning is it's not territory planning, it's like figuring out the components of it all coming together and started early and for us okay are is a track in integrated planning as is like on par with product roadmap and product planning and that's really, really important. And so we're doubling down on that now and as we mature we're also going to figure out how we want okay are is to continue to blossom thinking about you know personal okay ours and how it goes from from L one L two L three to individual teams and individual, you know, and like and you know, Nicole and I talked about this is like okay we want to lean over our skis because we want to go fast but we got to balance that right? How far do we go? But that's sort of like what we're going to start thinking through as we go into our fiscal year ends in uh ends in january. So like we're in the prime of thinking through how we're going to continue to mature it and make it right for us, you know, and I think that's important. There is no, I think one size fits all for any company and you've got to do what feels right and you've got to make sure that they're supported and enabled and and continuing to reiterate one of the learning experiences I have from obviously just work towards using okay ours but all the work we do with other customers is the that the size and shape of our organizations is changing all the time and sometimes it's because internally we're changing and sometimes...

...it's because the outside world says, oh here comes a major disruption, ready or not here it is right. And that in so many ways what I love about, oh cares is the path is the destination. Like you don't ever get to a place where you can phone it in, right? It's every single quarter, it requires your brain power as leadership team, it requires your thinking and your trade offs as teams in the middle, it requires your aspiration no matter what kind of team member place you are in the york rite, every single quarter, there is more learned and there's a shift and so on and it doesn't really get to a place where you don't have to think about it and where it's just like it's all auto pilot and a lot of times early in our conversations with companies, someone will say, well, okay, so when do we get to the point where like we just do okay ours, it's really easy and teams can just kind of do it on autopilot that day doesn't come the thinking about where we want to go and what success looks like you don't get to get out of it, you get a little better at it, but the thinking you're gonna have to keep on doing it totally like, you know, it's it's and we've talked about this, the three of us have talked about this is the idea of having radical clarity and when you think about that, it's like you're constantly looking right, if you think that metaphor. And so it's like if you go on autopilot, you're not focusing and you're not, you know, making sure that everyone is focused on the few things that are essential to happen. And I would say that's another thing like where we are in our journey is like we want to do fewer things better easier. Said I feel myself talking out the other side of my mouth as I say that, but like I need to keep saying that to myself and to and to and to our partners, you know, throughout iterable because we have to be able to do fewer things better. And I think for me, okay, ours is the partner to help us all do that. Let's talk a little bit about particularly increasing scale as teams and you build leadership team, then you add layers, right? And by the time you've served 500, and your head into 1000 people. The functions are pretty robust, right? They have uh maybe a C X. So they have a couple of VPs, they've got a couple of senior directors and directors, you've got layers in each function and made worse by our current way of working, right? You people tend to know the teammates, they work with every day, right? So they tend to actually know and work within the function as well. Those are the zoom calls were on, right, the other members of the marketing team, the other members of the columns team or whatever. And so the silos get pretty, they get pretty layered in silo along with that the walls between them go up. One of the things certainly are very largest customers a really struggle with that are really trying to optimize this lateral alignment, not just vertical alignment and how to work across the organization in a more effective way. Even when this sort of nature of distributed work makes that even harder than it once was. Is lateral alignment becoming more important as the overall Oregon creases? And are you starting to think about or have you already done great thinking on how you align across, not just up to the company objectives? Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great point and something that I believe, okay, rs are the ultimate catalyst to address as well. I remember early on when we first did are like tie offs conversation. So it's like you have all these like silos are definitely something that most companies deal with and, and hopefully they're not political because of their political silence and a whole other set of problems, but most of the time it's just like everyone's focused so hard on what they're doing, they don't have time, energy, they don't know to lift up and when they do lift up, they feel like they're missing something. So...

...that's that's you want you want to help change that and I think okay I can do that. And so I remember one time when we were one of the earlier sessions that we were having, we went through and part of like looking at the KRS and was like dependencies and like and and and that and that exercise. And I remember 11 person said like you know this is like you know this is this is this is too much like isn't this too much to to ask when we were this is the sort of the origin story of okay are so like why we're doing this? And I remember thinking like wow you just identified all these things that you're gonna be measuring and based on critical work and you probably would have done this anyway. But now at least you know to talk to that that leader and make sure that she is aligned with what's going on. And so 100% you need to continue to do that. I think that goes back into integrated planning and making sure that you're looking at it in different ways to drive. You know the one plus one equals 15. And and doing that, the only way to do that is to work more together very hard to do because it's like accountabilities questionable. You know, prioritization is multifaceted. And so that's where if you have combined, okay Rs or at least linking up to the the L one L O K R. S. It can really help that. So I think that is that is one of those uh we'll always be chasing that. But I think it's something to keep front and center and then working better across making trade offs. It's a lot easier if everybody speaks the same language totally. Exactly. Like when you understand, I love it when people talk about their work with the language of KRS and and okay ours and like even if there's if there's dissidents that's okay too. But like they talk about this does not align to this based on what we're seeing in workforce based on what we're doing here. Like those are those are winds, you know, even as you're having some heated debate. Yeah. And it can be uncomfortable that we're not aligned but it was gonna be uncomfortable just a lot later if you found out the other way right? As if we just pull that finding earlier than we get the upside of actually being able to spend our time on smarter better things rather than finding out later that we wasted them in conflict with each other. Even when it's bad news, it's still good news. You have a phrase that I thought was super helpful, especially for senior leaders, 15, maybe L one L two, even three teams as the organ gets bigger and which is this this test of as you set the objectives and the key results, do we really want to talk about this every two weeks? This is actually where we're going to focus. I think it's such a great test of whether you have the KRS write and tell us a little bit more if you don't mind. Maybe how do you learn? That was a great test. Yes. That's your trial and error. And we still don't get it right all the time. It's a balance of thinking something is important and thinking that there's a benefit from studying it, analyzing it and trying to actually pivot off of it. And sometimes you don't know that until you're living it. And this is what I think that I think we've gotten better at where we talked about. Yeah. This metric is important or this goal like this this this K are, you know, and reaching our full potential important. But like I really watching it every two weeks doesn't tell me much. And if we hit it, that's great. If we don't get, we're just not, we don't want to talk about, there's not energy there and being able to sort of think ahead on where there's going to be energy. And that's why how KRS tie with the hose and having clear those are so important is so you really figure out what you're trying to achieve and I'll just borrow what like what what you've taught us is like the idea is that KRS are just at the end of the day. They are signals for what the oh means right? And so I think as you lock in what you want to talk about as it relates to you know, what is meaningful and what is the signal to the objective, You know what you're...

...trying to achieve. You just get more harmony. Well, Nicole, let me come back to you and ask for for other Chiefs of staff and results Management leaders, People are trying to drive a great program and their earlier in there. Okay our journey. What advice would you give them to improve the impact of an okay our cadence and rhythm and maybe more importantly elevate the results and the velocity of the organization itself. Yeah, I think it's one, I think it's important that you don't forget where you came from and what I mean by that is the journey and the learnings and I think you touched on that earlier, but there's real power in all those incremental winds and progress. So you know, celebrate them and use that progress to propel your momentum. I also appreciated the reminder. Early reminders from our experts from work board when they would tell me to trust the mess. You know, it's those really uncomfortable trade off conversations and squishy moments that give the decisions that you make in those okay, our discussions really real and then when you witness the power of alignment, giving autonomy and empowerment and unity to your team's it's worthy of all that hard work. And then also again going back to the principle that I subscribe to repetition is the mother of retention. Okay our conversations need to be front and center in your weekly rhythm to drive week over week focus and then I think I would end it with start with people and end it with people. The heart of your business is your employee community so don't lose sight of why you chose to adopt. Okay. Rs it's to lift your teams up by accelerating and aligning your teams on decision making and then giving them real purpose and meaning in their everyday work. Sage advice for sure and I think we have to take the repetition is the mother of retention. I think you have to bring that into the okay our coach certification and results management certification classes and I think you should be the person to teach that section frankly because it is your clear wisdom and wisdom and then everyone would be smart to adopt. You ask me Jeff let me turn to you and ask what advice you would offer to executive teams at series C. Or series D. Heading into their E who don't use okay are or who do them in spreadsheets Also equal to not doing them that may be wondering how they scale there or mobilized teams and probably the challenge. Most leaders struggle with the most concentrating resources on what drives growth value the most. Listen I talked to a lot of ceos and operators of companies of all sizes and a lot of times brainstorming and trying to you know, problem solved I would say in general and if you're listening and you and this doesn't and you're one of these people and it doesn't this doesn't really fit with with your world, you are very lucky but most people claim lack of alignment as their biggest challenge or they'll do it like we said, we'll say like wow we're just so siloed or we just can't prioritize right all of these challenges get solved with a common language, an alignment framework and you know, okay ours has done that for me and so many other people that we know obviously and I think there's one thing about doing it once, I think a lot of people will have that off site or the remote site or however you're doing sites now and you'll get and you'll have that moment or several moments of being together but that is just the beginning of the journey and you have to make sure you are enabling your team to have the continuity of it and that's where it's like you have to make sure you're driving this alignment the right way and I think you know software was invented to solve problems right and I think having the right partner and we...

...have a great one with with you is and work board is the right way you having a platform that can help make it easier because again, doing it on your own, relying on an individual, you know, to do it to keep people aligned providing visibility at a global level. These are things that are just impossible to do on your own if your goal is to drive alignment, to drive prioritization, to make sure that you're able to question yourself and your team in the right way. And so my advice would be look into it, try to imagine a world where you could do it differently. It does take investment. This is not like a hey, you're going to snap your fingers and everything. It's like everything gets solved. But it is a partner like any great software SAAS platform is to help you achieve what you're trying to achieve. And I really do believe that most people are trying to achieve. Most companies are trying to achieve alignment collaboration and better prioritization. The perpetual challenges of using our resources and our talent for the greatest impact. Okay, so we're 10 days away from the end of the quarter. What are your rituals and maybe bring it into for each of you personally as you wrap up this quarter, tie off and close out the key results for the current quarter and set this age for your okay are reset going into next quarter. What will you both be doing in the course of that? Oh yeah, it's a good question and it's one that I look forward to actually each each quarter because it gives us a time to reset and refocus. So you know we come together and the first thing we do is we use work board to start doing a retro on the quarter where we go through winds challenges and shifts, you know using that and and one thing that Nicole brought into the this process was actually doing it. They're like don't make it a homework thing like like spend some time and everyone sort of just like get it out on paper like what is it, a sign your name to it and then Nicole, why don't you walk through like what do we do with that once we get that? I love this part of the okay our cycle because our corner power exercise is a real learning about where you know you've taught us that this is an opportunity for teams to learn from previous quarters activities and make smarter decisions and lift our decision making up and so we go through our victories, challenges and shifts in the visual board and we start thinking of things through the lens of themes. What are the big call outs in regards to those themes and leveraging those themes to make the ships for the next quarter's to enable us to really have those media discussions on what are we going to prioritize for the next month and be smarter and work with a sense of urgency and then when you reset your okay ours for the next quarter, are you changing the objectives over the course of the year, or just the key results? Yeah, you know, we always look at the objectives and you know, and we're open to changing them right, and we have changed them both at the beginning of the year and in quarter. And it's interesting as we look going forward, my feeling is, I mean, and this is just a Jeff feeling, not necessarily an honorable feeling, is that we should be changing them more right? Like, like it's like how do you get short term alignment as well as long term alignment, there's a balance there and I think sometimes if you go too much on either side, you miss it. So like, I'm hoping as we continue to, you know, go through our journey that we have, you know, objectives that are, hey, we have this objective for the quarter and that's okay because how many times you have a big project that's for a quarter and yes, it can fit into an annual objective, which is simply can't, but like sometimes it's more acute and you want to embrace it. So my feeling is as we go for as we go on, you know, like I...

...think we're going to get to a point where we'll have shorter term objectives, meaning one quarter, maybe two quarters, yep, mobilizing in the near term right with purpose. Exactly. I mean, the purposes, everything like that is if you want to like, you know, with purpose, you know, I think could be the name of the iterable okay, our blog, you know, it's, it's what we're aspiring for and trying to drive everyone towards. Sometimes we do it well, sometimes we don't, but that's our goal. It's a learning journey every step of the way. For sure. Well, I hope you your key results finish where you want them to this quarter and my team is heading into its okay are reset this thursday is that time of the corner as well? The cycle, I hope your quarter ends well. And thank you both very much for sharing your wisdom and your experience with us on the podcast today. For having us. Thank you for having us. Thank you for your partnership and your team's work. You've been listening to the Okay, our podcast, subscribe in your favorite player, so you never miss a moment. Thanks for listening until next time.

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