The OKR Podcast
The OKR Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

Agile at Scale: The IBM OKR Story

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Nanci Taylor, VP of Business Agility at IBM, talks about aligning on strategic imperatives, competing to win, and better business reviews. She explores the Capacity-vs-Ambition Gap and how sharp focus on it drives smarter decisions and outcomes.

You're listening to the OKA our podcast. We talked about the power of lateral alignment and outcome mindset and empowering teams to do their best work from anywhere. We also talk about operating as a digital company, which is crucial now here. Journeys, learnings and victories from our guest speakers and get expertise from our host to scale your leadership capacity and operate with high impact, trust and efficiency. Here's your host daydrea pack nod. Today my guest is Nancy Taylor, IBM Vice President of Enterprise Business Agility, and Nancy uses her passion for transformation, strategic alignment and creating a high performing culture to deliver on IBM School of Reaching Enterprise Wide Business Agility, and that means ensuring that all three enter fifty thousand global employees are confident that they're empowered, supported and on the right path forward. Outside of IBM and inside. She's known as a thought leader in enterprise business agility, and my favorite feature about Nancy is she's known for disrupting the status quote, and so in that capacity, of course, she's the person bringing outside best practices and emerging concepts in IBM to help it win and compete more effectively. Nancy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you, Dadrek it. It's my pleasure to join you. Wonderful still, let's start with just give us a little more insight and context on your role. Take us a little bit deeper in what it means to be driving enterprise business agility. So this notion of enterprise a Jilly. We started some four years ago. We had this deep dive into teaching agile, first to our CIO teams, as that just made natural sense right to embed this culture of Agile and introduce new ways of working within the technical community. We had some great success. The teams were embracing Dev ops and so from there we decided to shift to our non it teams and and test agile out a bit in our middle and back office teams. Those are the teams that were really working with sellers, providing support and expertise throughout our quote cash process forcumit process, finance process, etc. And so our thought was that we needed to really nail this before we could scale it across the rest of the enterprise. Getting some of those quick wins, being able to tell the stories, build that belief for the journey so that when we were out there we could feel the energy, follow that energy and then continue to build that belief and produce some incredible outcomes. And so now we're working hard to really enable all of that at scale. And for the rest of the enterprise that means taking this to the next level of maturity by introducing OK ours and so land did you first introduce Ok ours and of course, your team and other parts of IBN use workboard in that context. When did you start using that process practice and tells where you are in that particular journey. Sure I had done some reading on this. I had just reread John Doors Book around measuring what matters and had found another colleague inside IBM back in April time frame and really started to build some belief myself that we were ready to go to the next step, although not across the enterprise yet, just really thinking through where we could take that first step. And and so back in that timeframe is when I really challenged myself to think about how we could deliver the introduction of not only okay ours but work boards. Where would we bring it in? Where would we most likely have success? And so we took a step back and we thought about this, myself and few of my team members, and decided by let's start right within our own backyard. We ourselves need to learn...

...this and we really need to figure out will this make a difference? Quite frankly, are we ready for it and will it deliver the kind of transparency and discipline around outcomes that was missing a bit in our current journey? And so that's how we got started. So is it delivering something different? Is it on what you expect or, and I want to talk about your observations and learnings, but are you getting the goods? Yeah, I never realized that I would have the most passionate, excited, energetic team around us and really eye opening experiences. It came a lot faster than I thought. I was thinking this is going to take, you know, the rest of the year for us to really get into this and get some feedback. But within thirty days after the training my team was like, Oh my God, this is awesome, I love it. How do we get more and where do we go next and how do we get it across the enterprise, because it it was that radical of a change for them and it was that eye opening that they just can't get enough of it Santastic. What and in many ways mirrors the experience we have elsewhere where. Leaders often sort of start with this idea of okay, we need to get drive higher alignment, we need to be thinking outcomes, not activity, and they assume it's going to be a push, that they're the only ones that want at and wet. We find at Juniper, at Microsoft, it's just go and a lot of peer companies right is there's a huge appetite for people to have clarity on the value that they create this quarter and what their team is going to do and why. That's great and it's some really natural way. Of course, we all built the work right. Yeah, I think you don't anticipate that they'll be quite that much appetite. It's and it's of course it's Fatus when you can be motivated from the kind of senior leaders and motivated from within and across teams. That's that's when magic and speed happen. Right, absolutely, we solve that. Let's go into some of the observations you had as you navigated that journey. So what were some of the learnings? What your takeaways? I know you had some big ones. Our first major learning was my gosh, were we're not actually taking the time to be deliberate and thoughtful about not only creating but stating or objectives of what we wanted our teams to spend time on, and then time those two where we wanted to be in terms of an organization and how that been tied to the top of the house from strategic intent we looked at how we created our focused objectives and we did that on a yearly basis. Like you know, we commit to go do teach people agile. Beyond that, it sort of was a building of momentum as you go, Hey, this feels good, let's do more. That's my experience right, and we have plenty of other people across the enterprise who are in different roles that have much more dis a plan around what their measures are, and in some cases you don't have measures for work activities and workflows. So I'm not talking about the traditional financials at the top. I'm talking about pure operational metrics. And so when we got into this and picked a few of the teams to start with, we purposely stayed away from operational metrics that we talked about transformational projects that we were working on because those are where we spend most of our time, energy and certainly resources or capacity, and so we wanted to really test our thinking on are we doing this the right way? Are we creating the right set of objectives? Are we measuring the right results and are they delivering the value? So, for for me when we first started,...

...it was a surprise just to go through the process of creating those objectives. What people thought was a really good objective versus what's really a good objective. That was a surprise. And then watching a cascade down to the teams and seeing the results of what they thought were some key results. And when you would read them you would scratch your head and, very much like a leader that wants everybody to succeed, you want to jump in there and say, maybe that's not exactly written the right way, maybe we want to reward that. But the careful coaching that I got from your team was to let the teams go, let them go experiment, and so once you get started in this journey, you don't need the full ninety days to realize that you probably didn't nail it right the first time. You know that after one or two weeks. In fact, the teams know it probably before you do, and then when they show up in a business review, there are a little bit reserved about telling you where they are because they know in fact that they haven't written the best key result, or maybe they haven't written the best objective. Therefore, their finding that they don't have ways to measure it, or perhaps the indicators that they chose were not moving them in the right direction. I was surprised to learn that you can learn that quickly whether you've done something really great for whether it's okay, or whether you have to sharpen your pencil for the next go around. And so it was teaching the team less about this notion of measuring what matters, but really helping them understand that we thought this was something that we wanted to measure and we thought it aligned with a greater sense of strategic intent. But at the end of the day, when they looked at the activities and came back, they themselves could realize that this was not exactly a great thing. So a different discussion, which was also a surprise, was the question of so what are we going to do about this? Empowering the people to really talk about the work and then letting it go if it wasn't delivering. I mean imagine their surprise two weeks into the quarter, me saying hey, it's this really the right thing for us to be spending our time and effort on? Think it doesn't seem like we can measure it. Is there really value around it? Can you show me how it ties to those strategic objectives? And they were a little nervous. But when they could see that it couldn't tie and I said let's let's just pause and shifts the capacity elsewhere, you could see this huge sense of relief. It was like, Oh, you know, we knew it, but we weren't sure if she knew it, and now we all know it's it's great, we're going to go repurpose our capacity and deliver something different. And I think they felt they were locked in and you just couldn't change it. And and I do find that it's very flexible as you go, but you're learning something. I mean every day we're learning something from the teens about what's working and what's not working. That where the teams are learning at themselves, like the lessons and insides you saw them had like Oh, actually, maybe that wasn't really the thing we were pursuing and maybe we didn't think it through deeply enough. or how it really can't measure that or in heights a that's an opinion, not an objected measure. That digesting. That like feeling that yourself is worth so much more than having other people tell it to you. And Yeah, I don't get it right and you, as you point out, you can quickly get there. The other one we see all the time is their eyes are just so much bigger than their stomach right like theyill. Some teams will be wildly ambitious about what accomplished right in a quarter and again two,...

...three weeks, and you know it. And what is awesome to me is that's the process working. Sometimes people think that's the process not working, but in fact that is the process showing us where we have more room for alignment, more room for focusing on value. That's the design intention of the process. I think, Dadre what you're saying. They're I wrap that up and say, for us, we absolutely saw that and for me this was an awesome human experiment with challenging our inner competitive muscles, as well as this new found focus on outcome. Right, IB embers are super competitive. And so we found that some of these teams were super ambitious, as you said, their objectives and cars were. At the end of the day, we deem them the best impossible because they were just having shooting for the moon impossible and they were definitely flexing. You Got Competitive Muscle. And then some of those teams stepped up a bit out of their comfort zone. You know, we hurs them a little bit, but they came up with a with the best possible and and they were comfortable with exercising, you know, that competitive muscle to get it a little bit stronger and push themselves a little bit more. And then for some of the teams, they just went with the best probable, which is comfortable and fine. But because we're all humans and with a human centered approach, we had to recognize it. Not Everybody's ready to lean in and celebrate the red, especially if you grew up learning that being read as a bad thing, and we just don't accept that. So so shifting the mindset to instead embrace the red and be really positive about what you're learning from the red, for some was like building a brand new muscle that just didn't even exist in their body. So that has of you know, a a big culture component, right, and and in particular at Idem which is a more than a hundred years old, right, and there's not a you don't get a new day one, right. You start where you are, you start with the legacy you have and go forward from there. And some part of that that the culture shift from output or activity to outcomes and results, the shift to elevating ambition or organizing around what great looks like, not what predictable looks like. That that stretches and in some ways goes at odds. With it a culture of kind of performance, which is you deliver on your business commitments, right, and so you and not, and it's not ide of specific, but broadly we, a lot of us, grew up on the you under promise and over deliver, which I don't think I ever ever played out that way. Right. You under promise and then you deliver on your promise. Is when it is in practice. But what are some of the kind of culture dynamics that you sawn and maybe, more importantly, when people live through it, maybe a first cycle, where they did they get comfortable on the other side, sort of stepping up the leaning into great, not just leaning into most probable. The biggest culture shift that I witnessed was actually for this team that we had chosen, was coming together as a team and having transparency about the outcomes and the key results. We could see each other's not that we hadn't talked about it before as pears and colleagues, but to do this in a in a pretty formal way, through a platform that afford you the opportunity to see where you are, was a little bit nerve racking at first for people to see how am I doing? So in that spirit of under promising and over delivering, you remove that. It's just...

...not there, it's here. Is My commitment, these are my key results and it's there for all to see, not just for you to see, and so you can't really, you know, Fudd your way around that. So a big shift there was just having this notion of radical transparency and then allowing your teams to see. I mean all the way down to the team. It's transparent. You can see everyone's key results and objectives and how they sort of flow up and connect to the the top of the house. I think that's a big change for us. I think it fits in well with where we're going and where we need to be. But I think that was probably the biggest culture change for me. Now, once people got used to it and comfortable with it, you could see that that the exchange started with hey, tell me more about how you think you're going to achieve this objective. Who are you partner with? How is that going to turn out? And so the conversation started there around how we could learn, you know, more from each other. At the same time, we also had transparency, where we might have overlapping outcomes, overlapping objectives, where you then take a step back and you have to sort of reframe your thinking of instead of competing with somebody, how do we join forces and take this capacity to imply it for the greater good of the enterprise, whereas before I just maybe didn't know what my peers, are colleagues, were working on, but now I could see it and then it caused me to take a different step. And so I do think there's a piece of that cultural side that said, wow, I can see it, and are we all making the best use of this capacity that we have and employing it in the in a very positive way, if that makes sense. Yep, I think one of the epic shifts for companies. Right am particularly does that when I work with higher agility and velocity. Is a shift from vertical alignment, which is a private conversation between a leader and their manager and their employees, to lateral alignment, which maximize its the leverage that the Organization for its customers. And transparency is the prerequisite to exercising lateral alignment in its fullest. That notion of lateral alignment is so critical. It's like a superpower. If you, if you would enable all of your team members to really understand our aspirational objectives, give them that true clarity of purpose, but then also the transparency that the platform provides. I mean, we're helping them to ask different questions, but we're also getting them executing in the right direction by strength in team bonds, heightening those ambitions and improving their skills by doing that cross collaboration laterally to deliver on those objectives. It's very fulfilling to see some of these conversations that are happening, whereas before it was a lot of effort on your part. If you had a question about g did somebody solve this problem before? Somebody else working on this, because such a huge company and that's our greatest strength, but it's also one of our greatest hurdles when you're trying to really get speed to market is where do I go? Where do I find this? And so putting this framework in place started some very different conversations and this notion of lateral alignment, like I said, is just starting to take off. But as we're looking at how work flows throughout our enterprise and having that workflow laterally giving the teams the opportunity to see what some of the key results are, especially if you focus in on some of those workflows, you can begin to pull out where the level of duplication might exist or perhaps where some of those major blockers are that are...

...holding you back from your speed. So for us it's just been an incredible lift to the entire team in their performance in a large and complex business, and Idem's far and away when of the largest and most by complex I mean diverse and global. True alignments really really hard without transparency, without a real process for it. But it's not an accident and by any means right, but without a real process and a real platform for it, it's incredibly hard and it's in without alignment right on what outcomes trying to create together and without the ability see the duplication, we we sort of revert to activity right, like I'm busy and since I'm busy, I must be doing something really valuable. I don't know what that is, but I'm really busy. That sort of confusing our motion and our calorie burn in a day with our value creation. And I know you're part of just driving this shift of activity mindset to outcome mindset and and making alignment an area of great strength for the organization. Waiting on that a little bit. It's one of the first things that my team had pointed out and called me on. I mean it's easy to get caught up an activity. Like you said, people feel really good about doing large quantities of work or perhaps they think they're adding value, when actually what they're doing is really creating work for others. And so it's easy to do that if you're not anchored to a set of to find out calms and you don't have measures around the value that you deliver. And my team and called me out on it right when we started in this process. And question me. You know you want us to go do that, but where is that it's not in my it's not in my objectives for this quarter. Like, what do you mean? We have to do it? It's almost a function of you know when some people write their job descriptions and you get that other duties as assigned. Right, they're calling out there. They're calling out those other duties as assigned and saying, but hold on, right, in their agile language. Or does that fall in my backlog? I don't see it. Now you're putting into my funnel. How do you want me to prioritize that? But now they're coming forward and saying like that's not in my objectives for this quarter, and so why would you spend time on that, Nancy? You're like, Whoa, what have I created here? Right? So I think it's awesome that we're helping to teach the teams the difference between output versus though, those outcomes, and that's been helped along through this use of this visual board of progress that we have. But now that mindset is actually shifted, I think they're helping to hold me accountable for how they spend their time as well, and so there's some of the first ones to be super critical of their of their colleagues as well when they come and ask for help, and this is where the complex organization comes into play. Right we've got a finite set of teams that have embraced okay ours and are learning it and applying it right now. If someone outside that circle comes in, it's hard to have that conversation and they're pushing back and saying that's just activity, it's an output you want me to participate in and I'm focused on outcomes. So you're like having this proud pair of moment when you hear that conversation. But then there's this part of you that's like, okay, but I can understand what they're asking for, why they're asking for it. How do we help shift their mindset to understand what we're doing, where we are on the journey and get them excited so maybe they want to go on that journey with us and we have earlier doctors that we can pull in. So it is tricky when the whole organization isn't yet operating there, but my team very definitely has allowed opinion on activity versus outcome. Okay, and when you start to see this change in vocabularies like so, we'll let me are objective for that?...

And how would we even know we were successful? It's actually in especially if the strict away the acronym, which can be a blocker my set blocker for others, but if you just feel back the acronym and and use the words right like what would be our objective and what results would tell us we were succeeding, it's actually an awesome we a partner across the org say the action not entirely sure. Let me think about that and then come back next week. Yeah, when I got Larry in, might ask it is. Or I have found they they don't even start with the objective question. They go right to the punch line, which is so. who were to do that? What would success look like? And for who? It's a quick a way just to shift through those new request or requirements, or somebody just innocently asking you, Hey, I've got to go work on this. Do you want to help me? You know, when you start to frame it that way, I think you become more productive. Yeah, purposeful work, yes, absolutely so. Id Am just named a new CEO and Arvin is on a fantastic and very transformative mission and for full disclosure, I'm a former idea myself, and in that capacity I'm super excited about where he's leading the way forward. So tell us about his three imperatives and how the work you're doing is helping to drive those. I'm super excited as well, dedream, this has been such a lift in spirit for us, as well as just embracing his three new imperatives. So simple, growth mindset, radical candor, entrepreneurial spirit. Those are the three pillars that he talks about, and so for me personally, growth mindset is is all about unlearning past behaviors, processes and ideals and leaning in with a constant curiosity as well as a willingness. You need that willingness to lean in and learn every day. What better looks like? Not only that, but knowing what got us to this point is good, but it isn't necessarily going to get us to where we want to be, and so having that radical transparency that we talked about, along with that radical candor about where we are what we need to do to improve it shows up by US actually celebrating the red and making that shift to do that, and so working super hard to spread this data driven culture that we've embraced and using that to fuel the dramatic change to this management system. That ties to his strategic fission, and if we are doing that and aligning everyone to that, it will deliver the impact on topline growth and profit improvement. So this is a view of transparency that we've been yearning for for years. It's definitely going to ignite what are recalls entrepreneurial spirit in all of us. As I said before, as IB EM ers were super competitive, but I think being focused and driven in a new way will help bring out some of this entrepreneurial spirit and we're definitely going to win in the market. I love that your words on having constant curiosity and leaning into every day, leaning into what better looks like that at some level actually just defines what entrepreneuries do right. It's just this really, really curious about the problem and falling in love with the problem that can be solved and and always trying to figure out how do you do it better than yesterday? Right, that and that can be a really invigorating way to live actually and to show up at work right and too. I think the what I think he's quite quite savvy in how he's engaging the organization. All the human beings in it in a new picture of the future. It's a very exciting one. Of the entrepreneurial mindset. One of the...

...things united had about this little bit the other day. But one of the things that is quite different in a in a start up, versus, said, a company like IBM, and I've been a leader in both both places, so that the differences are are clear and frankly, the values in the unique advantages of both are also clear. Right. Enormous. Scale is incredibly powerful. Speed is incredibly powerful. If you can play them both, boy, you rule the world. But entrepreneurs world, like every startup everywhere, is born with this enormous gap between their ambition and their capacity. Right, like this sort of proverbial two guys in a dog who started company to change the world. Like they only have two guys in a dog. They don't even have capacity to change the world, but they have enough ambition to do that, and so they're sort of the identity of the company. The mindset of the company from the very beginning is really centered in, steeped in this constant constraint. We have limited resources, we have limited capital, limited time, grown enough people to go around. Our ambition everything is limited, scarcity, right, and somebody else is going to steal our idea and then we these huge ambition. So you just you in the startup broke. Part of the reason they move with such speed and innovation at such speed is they are making this disc constant, ruthless trade offs of all that we could do to those things that are just the most value, creating on our ambition. And the other thing they do, which I think I found was hard for people and Ibum, was let go of the things that aren't as valuable, like just it's okay, if we don't do all the things, we're going to do the things that matter more, matter most, and then we're going to learn from that and then we're going to make another judgment call and then we're to learn from that. Right, this, but this scarcity with clarity on ambition and when you are in a larger and a particular complex organization, right, part of the challenges there's a perception that we have a lot of capacity. We don't have scarcity, we have we have a lot. Right, we have a million people sometimes, right, we have a lot of capacity. And if we don't, if we don't have alignment on our outcomes. Our ambition is fuzzy. So we have abundance of capacity, but fuzziness on the ambition and and the gap is a little harder to manage to so people don't know how to make really smart trade us, which and I can't do everything, so I'm going to choose what matters the most. And you end up kind of competing against your own ambitions, in part because you haven't crystallize them right. When we talked about this the other day, I haven't really thought about it that way until you, UN till you lay that out and described it, and and I think it's an interesting concept and certainly one that you know. Before I came to ib am I was with a privately owned company and it felt almost like that way. We had more than two guys in a dog, but you could walk down the hallway, lock yourself in a conferenterorn, make a decision, walk out, go execute. You come here it's a little bit tougher to do that. And the capacity statement you make is is an interesting one because while we we might seem that we have, you know, unlimited capacity, the way that we're structured sometimes doesn't feel that way. And so in some of our more strategic, frontline type organizations, they do have very limited capacity, and so I think where we can, in this moment of time, make this pivot with a focus on what our munds ambition is and the challenge he set forth, will give us that opportunity to think more about this ambition capacity gap and challenge us to think about how we apply that capacity to achieve his ambitions. And so when you make them very public, and he's been doing a great piece of work in memorializing...

...this on a regular basis with our employees across the company, in having regular meetings with us and sharing in a very transparent way where the company is going, where are we now and what are the steps we need to take to continue to make us move forward and what we don't have that yet, as I described, fully plumped through the entire system using okay ours. It's our desire to get there. You can hear people sort of shifting their conversations around the narrative of this is where we're headed. So that fuzziness feels like it's starting to go away. But I do love this concept and I think I need to take it back and share it with my team because if I could get them in the spirit of embracing what Arvin is called out in terms of the you know, growth mindset, the radical candor and this notion of entrepreneurial spirit, and help them understand this ambition pacity gap. I think they will be much more tenacious in even more so than they are today, in their embracing of that lateral alignment as well as the strategic alignment. Yeah, I think conversation had with my team, in particularly you people who join the team, when they come in, it's part of obviously okay ours and try and get to best passables. You you end up in the rantal lot right, which is didn't know what I did know, just learn something new and my capacity was shorter than I thought. And the conversation I have with them is that that gap between passity and ambition often shows up as read on your krs. And what we're not going to do is lower our ambition so we can get to the comfortable green hey, we're going to make smarter tradeoff so we can move closer to that ambition, but we're not dialing down the ambition. And it's somehow easier than the conversation around. You're going to focus harder or whatever, because the ambition, particularly I view have if you're surrounded by a community of people with entrepreneur spirit, ambition is relatable. It's forward moving, it's not backward moving, and I think that forward moving tapping into my desires to do something great and meaningful. I find that super potent. It's liberating to say, Hey, the red is a reminder that we have real ambition and thank God for that. Right like, that's awesome news, let's work with it. I absolutely think that we are not going to zial back on our ambition and if I just take that all the way down to this core team that we set up and started on this journey, you can see that there's no one on the team who's taken a step back. They're not even the ones that I called out as the, you know, most impossible. They're not stepping back, which is what I love about them. They're fully embracing this and the ambition is going to change. What is going to change, as you described, is taking full advantage of that red and learning where the shifts have to happen to speed up the progress towards that ambition. And and I think we're getting there, but it's it's just starting with the core team and you can see that no one wants to go back, no one wants to retreat into let's just go with comfortable and dial back those ambitions, as you say, and that's the good thing about this. I think we've UN we've got some untapped potential that it's giving them a whole new way to look in the mirror and say yeah, when they when they get up every day, it's like, where are we going? Let's go. We know we have the road map, but there's more we can do and we can get better with this. We're not there yet. Even on my team last week we I think fifty percent of what we had was read, but we have great conversations about it. Yep, that's the process working as it shed not a broken process. It's awesome. It's awesome. What are some of...

...the Aha moments and particular from that conversation last week and as you look backwards on this corner lat are some of the Ajas that you'll take into next quarter? Some of what drove that conversation rather read was we just couldn't measure it. We had written a really bad key result and we couldn't measure it. So we learned from that. It took us a while. We thought we were measuring the right thing, but as we sort of unpacked it and looked at it a little bit more, we found that we weren't. I think the other piece was, as I said, we do some of our planning full year planning, and so not having those leading indicators where everybody has lagging indicators and it feels like you're always looking in the rearview mirror. So to have some leading indicators to give the team's sort of just in time feedback on your making progress. You're moving in the right direction, as opposed to waiting, looking in the re view mirror and there's no time left to pivot and you have no shot at all at making the commitments that that you put forward. So I think having that on a regular cadence with those leading indicators was a huge Aha moment, not just for me but for the team. They feel really good about that. And again, in the notion of this small you know, measuring incremental value. As we're talking about the things that we're doing and challenging each other, what more could we do? I think it gives you the opportunity to create more value, and so now I can hear them talking. They're getting ready. We're going to go into our we're getting into to our retro and reset next week for the fourth quarter, and I can hear them already talking about bigger ambitions than we had in the third quarter. So taking those learnings and we're going for bigger this time. That's awesome, fabulous and in some ways it right. If you're measuring incremental value each week, what you're doing is ensuring that you have data to drive your decisions for where you'll spend your time and capacity this week. Right, as opposed to you get data at the end of the quarter where it informs no decision. The window of decision went by already, and I sort of thinking about you and I'm data driven decision making. It's will. Let are the key decisions I'll make this quarter, single biggest one, where I'm going to invest people time and my own time. Yeah, and and making that just even those little weekly check ins allowing you to make the weekly data driven decisions come even to the smallest of things, like how you manage your calendar time. You'd be amazed at how much time we spend during the week just talking to people. The question is, are you spending your time talking to those to the right people about the right things to deliver the outcomes that you signed up for? And that's also been another Aha moment and it's given us all some time back on our calendars to be more thoughtful about how we do that, especially in the current environment, giving us time to prepare and really make sure that we're making the mess the best of the time that we're spending with our teammates in support of where we want to get to. One of the one of the people I work for while I was at Iv am that and I think he retired a couple of years ago, but he taught me fabulous lesson I've never forgotten about owning my time and the power of declining to attend a meeting and so liberating, like, oh right, I don't have to go just because I've been invited to go. Yeah, I just totally yeah, yeah, it is so speaking of meetings, what are some of your favorite work born moves and views? And actually, business reviews. I don't know...

...whether that's your favorite about that. Business reviews actually came from the MRS and qbrs that I spent an extraordinary amount of time on when I was a business leader at at IBM. That okay, there's got to be away to get the data faster, not have to go to the meeting and there's got to be a way to reduce my slide creation burden, that is the week or so before the meeting. Wow, that's awesome. I I didn't know that. Um Really, yeah, yeah, I didn't you. Has Been All that time. And Mrs and Qbr so, yeah, so you definitely get some of the pain that that we have and that's the shift for going to make. So, in addition to what you describe the self servicing of the data, which which I to love, I really do like building the business reviews. I do like a business review because when the teams come to me, I can see where my team needs help real quick with the hot box and we spend more of our time removing blockers that are getting in the way, and for me that's valuable conversation because that's gonna, you know, remove the blocker and enable my team to pick up some speed and some productivity there. So I really love that. I think, you know, I give my team points for creativity, the way that they're they're creating their business reviews. But then from those, those really meaningful conversations, I can walk away and build a better review, business review for my leader and some of my team now is just doing all of their reviews off of workboard. We've killed power point, we've killed excel charts, it's all done in the tool, which I think is awesome. And the other favorite piece, I love. It's you might think it's Hokey, but honestly I think it's awesome. It's the ability to give feedback on a meeting. You know, such a simple gesture and choosing between those little three faces. It helps we give immediate feedback but more importantly, it provides me an opportunity to have develop mental discussions with my leaders around communicating for impact and where they're focusing their time with their people right, and so that's a golden little nugget. When we first tried the first time, one of my leaders pointed out to me and I'm like what is this and she's like, I don't know, we're just going to try and we'll see what happens. And so I had slacker and said hey, I got this email. Like to give you feedback on the meeting and she's like, okay, well, we'll do it. Let's see what happens. And so I gave her, because I didn't want to give her a happy face to make her day. I just want to torture, I gave her like the middle face. Just said No. She's like, well, what is this mean? I thought it was a great meeting, and I said, I know, I'm just playing with you, I just want to see how it went. But it but seriously, after that we had showed others and so now we're adopting that. But it's again, it's quick, it's immediate, but it gives me the opportunity for that moment in time, while it's fresh and everybody's head, to say, Hey, let's focus more on this and less on that, and then they can take it back to their teams and continue to build again in that spirit of just continuous improvement. It's a fun little feature that you know. I don't know, maybe nobody else's called that out and share that with you. I love that. I have not heard it, but I love the I love the thought of helping your leaders lead. Well, I think that's that's at yeah, actually, and that you sell that triggered it, do it and and use that. I think that's fabulous. So, on that note, what advice would you give transformational leaders as they think about dry having higher agility and driving baby higher and faster alignment on outcomes in their organizations? Okay, ours are the magic sauce to strategic alignment, transparency, accountability, all of that is key to our transformation and, frankly, the foundation to a healthy culture and a corporation. And so, while taking individually, I think they're all important, but if...

...you think about those holistically, it'll give you a much better yield. And then find yourself some passionate first followers. If you want to really deliver with impact. They will want to join your change revolution and help build belief that happier employees who understand where we're going and are aligned to strategic intent will absolutely build better outcomes. Perfect, brilliant advice. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, your experience and your wisdom like this was delightful. You've been listening to the OKA our podcast. Subscribe in your favorite player so you never miss a moment. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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